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	<title>Comments on: Content and presentation separation anxiety</title>
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	<link>http://www.madwebskills.net/2007/08/22/content-and-presentation-separation-pipedreams/</link>
	<description>Michael McCorry runs Mad Web Skills, a progressive, standards-based web design and development firm covering Melbourne, Shepparton and pretty much anywhere else. His blog covers standards-based web design and development news, reviews, techniques and projects.</description>
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		<title>By: CSS variables are go! at Mad Web Skills - Web design in Melbourne and Shepparton</title>
		<link>http://www.madwebskills.net/2007/08/22/content-and-presentation-separation-pipedreams/comment-page-1/#comment-11969</link>
		<dc:creator>CSS variables are go! at Mad Web Skills - Web design in Melbourne and Shepparton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Jul 2008 04:10:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.madwebskills.net/2007/08/22/content-and-presentation-separation-pipedreams/#comment-11969</guid>
		<description>[...] a post I wrote almost a year ago (and in the ensuing comments), I pondered the possibility of someday being able to define variables [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] a post I wrote almost a year ago (and in the ensuing comments), I pondered the possibility of someday being able to define variables [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: WDS07: Workshop Day Two at Mad Web Skills - Web design in Melbourne and Shepparton</title>
		<link>http://www.madwebskills.net/2007/08/22/content-and-presentation-separation-pipedreams/comment-page-1/#comment-8192</link>
		<dc:creator>WDS07: Workshop Day Two at Mad Web Skills - Web design in Melbourne and Shepparton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Sep 2007 13:17:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.madwebskills.net/2007/08/22/content-and-presentation-separation-pipedreams/#comment-8192</guid>
		<description>[...] for designer types. This new methodology, along with the new CSS3 selectors module, makes the selector alias theory I had the other week kinda redundant, as markup will no longer require any reference to where the content fits in the [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] for designer types. This new methodology, along with the new CSS3 selectors module, makes the selector alias theory I had the other week kinda redundant, as markup will no longer require any reference to where the content fits in the [...]</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Michael McCorry</title>
		<link>http://www.madwebskills.net/2007/08/22/content-and-presentation-separation-pipedreams/comment-page-1/#comment-7731</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael McCorry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Aug 2007 07:24:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.madwebskills.net/2007/08/22/content-and-presentation-separation-pipedreams/#comment-7731</guid>
		<description>@Trav: I like that idea. Like setting variables that could mean one thing or another. I&#039;m guessing quote delimiters wouldn&#039;t be enough. It would have to be something like php where you could use the variable wherever you like, such as: 

&lt;code&gt;@define { 
&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;$bordthickness: &quot;1px&quot;; 
&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;$bordstyle: &quot;solid&quot;; 
&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;$bordcol: &quot;#fc0&quot;; 
&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;$lightcol: &quot;#fffffe&quot;; 
}

.box {
&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;border: $bordthickness $bordstyle $bordcol;
&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;background-color: $lightcol;
}&lt;/code&gt;

Come to think of it, I suppose if we&#039;re going to go that direction, we might as well just use php to generate our CSS files. I suppose this way would make it server-independent though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Trav: I like that idea. Like setting variables that could mean one thing or another. I&#8217;m guessing quote delimiters wouldn&#8217;t be enough. It would have to be something like php where you could use the variable wherever you like, such as: </p>
<p><code>@define {<br />
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;$bordthickness: "1px";<br />
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;$bordstyle: "solid";<br />
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;$bordcol: "#fc0";<br />
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;$lightcol: "#fffffe";<br />
}</p>
<p>.box {<br />
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;border: $bordthickness $bordstyle $bordcol;<br />
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;background-color: $lightcol;<br />
}</code></p>
<p>Come to think of it, I suppose if we&#8217;re going to go that direction, we might as well just use php to generate our CSS files. I suppose this way would make it server-independent though.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Michael McCorry</title>
		<link>http://www.madwebskills.net/2007/08/22/content-and-presentation-separation-pipedreams/comment-page-1/#comment-7730</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael McCorry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Aug 2007 07:12:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.madwebskills.net/2007/08/22/content-and-presentation-separation-pipedreams/#comment-7730</guid>
		<description>@Gary: Yeah, I guess you&#039;re right. Its a little hard not to hold certain web celebs in a higher regard, especially when you&#039;ve been looking up to them throughout your career, learning from their blogs and listening to them speak at conferences, etc. 

I&#039;ve read John Allsop&#039;s post about web patterns, and it also interests me a little (along with microformats). This would be quite useful when creating your own style frameworks and starting points, but I&#039;m not too sure about creating some kind of universal rule-set for everyone to follow. However, it would definitely be useful to have a global vocabulary to define the elements of a web design. I remember back in the day, when flash intros were all the go *shudder* we had a demo movie that showed all the animation techniques we used (eg. wavy text, splashing text, typewriter, tile-fade, etc.) so we had a way to discuss with clients what they were actually after, and also with other members of the team on the project. 

As for Blueprint being applied commercially, I agree. I&#039;ve already used it on a project, but by the time I was finished with it, I&#039;d customised the number of columns and their widths, the container width, as well as some of the typography. (&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.kematzy.com/blueprint-generator/index.php&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;This tool&lt;/a&gt; made it a bit easier at first...). I didn&#039;t practically use much of what it offered. Because it was just a small site, it didn&#039;t really save me much time, although I guess the real test will come soon enough.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Gary: Yeah, I guess you&#8217;re right. Its a little hard not to hold certain web celebs in a higher regard, especially when you&#8217;ve been looking up to them throughout your career, learning from their blogs and listening to them speak at conferences, etc. </p>
<p>I&#8217;ve read John Allsop&#8217;s post about web patterns, and it also interests me a little (along with microformats). This would be quite useful when creating your own style frameworks and starting points, but I&#8217;m not too sure about creating some kind of universal rule-set for everyone to follow. However, it would definitely be useful to have a global vocabulary to define the elements of a web design. I remember back in the day, when flash intros were all the go *shudder* we had a demo movie that showed all the animation techniques we used (eg. wavy text, splashing text, typewriter, tile-fade, etc.) so we had a way to discuss with clients what they were actually after, and also with other members of the team on the project. </p>
<p>As for Blueprint being applied commercially, I agree. I&#8217;ve already used it on a project, but by the time I was finished with it, I&#8217;d customised the number of columns and their widths, the container width, as well as some of the typography. (<a href="http://www.kematzy.com/blueprint-generator/index.php" rel="nofollow">This tool</a> made it a bit easier at first&#8230;). I didn&#8217;t practically use much of what it offered. Because it was just a small site, it didn&#8217;t really save me much time, although I guess the real test will come soon enough.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Travis</title>
		<link>http://www.madwebskills.net/2007/08/22/content-and-presentation-separation-pipedreams/comment-page-1/#comment-7727</link>
		<dc:creator>Travis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Aug 2007 00:54:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.madwebskills.net/2007/08/22/content-and-presentation-separation-pipedreams/#comment-7727</guid>
		<description>I really like that alias idea - would definitely remove the drudgery of having to constantly add CSS rules with multiple selectors.

On a slightly related note, I would love to see a way in CSS to define your own color names as well. So I could do something like:

@color: borderColor=#ccc;

and then constantly use &quot;borderColor&quot; in my CSS rules:

.panel
{
    border: 1px solid &quot;borderColor&quot;;
}

(with quote delimiters, since I imagine parsing arbritrarily defined color names like that could be perplexing)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I really like that alias idea &#8211; would definitely remove the drudgery of having to constantly add CSS rules with multiple selectors.</p>
<p>On a slightly related note, I would love to see a way in CSS to define your own color names as well. So I could do something like:</p>
<p>@color: borderColor=#ccc;</p>
<p>and then constantly use &#8220;borderColor&#8221; in my CSS rules:</p>
<p>.panel<br />
{<br />
    border: 1px solid &#8220;borderColor&#8221;;<br />
}</p>
<p>(with quote delimiters, since I imagine parsing arbritrarily defined color names like that could be perplexing)</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Gary Barber</title>
		<link>http://www.madwebskills.net/2007/08/22/content-and-presentation-separation-pipedreams/comment-page-1/#comment-7721</link>
		<dc:creator>Gary Barber</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Aug 2007 09:02:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.madwebskills.net/2007/08/22/content-and-presentation-separation-pipedreams/#comment-7721</guid>
		<description>Well web-celebs are people too.  In fact I would take a lot of what they say with a pinch of salt as they really only know as much as we do.  They are riding on the same train, heading in the same unknown direction :)

The use of defined alias to some extend was proposed on the WHATWG list (IIRC) and is similar to John Allslop&#039;s concept of design (web) patterns. Which is topic I have great deal of interest in. 

However I can point to lots of in the wild cases daily in which we need to separate the id style rules and apply a layers class cascade of rules for a comment design element over multiple pages etc.  Its a nice idea however.  A simple starting point would be to get all the headers, footers, columns and content on the grid named the same from a universal context. 

Blueprint has lots of good points as it brings together a lot of good ideas and techniques into one framework.  Still I can&#039;t see it being applied commerically with out some degree of personalisation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well web-celebs are people too.  In fact I would take a lot of what they say with a pinch of salt as they really only know as much as we do.  They are riding on the same train, heading in the same unknown direction <img src='http://www.madwebskills.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>The use of defined alias to some extend was proposed on the WHATWG list (IIRC) and is similar to John Allslop&#8217;s concept of design (web) patterns. Which is topic I have great deal of interest in. </p>
<p>However I can point to lots of in the wild cases daily in which we need to separate the id style rules and apply a layers class cascade of rules for a comment design element over multiple pages etc.  Its a nice idea however.  A simple starting point would be to get all the headers, footers, columns and content on the grid named the same from a universal context. </p>
<p>Blueprint has lots of good points as it brings together a lot of good ideas and techniques into one framework.  Still I can&#8217;t see it being applied commerically with out some degree of personalisation.</p>
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