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	<title>Comments on: Content and presentation separation anxiety</title>
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	<link>http://www.madwebskills.net/2007/08/22/content-and-presentation-separation-pipedreams/</link>
	<description>Michael McCorry runs Mad Web Skills, a progressive, standards-based web design and development firm covering Melbourne, Shepparton and pretty much anywhere else. His blog covers standards-based web design and development news, reviews, techniques and projects.</description>
	<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jan 2009 03:15:39 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: CSS variables are go! at Mad Web Skills - Web design in Melbourne and Shepparton</title>
		<link>http://www.madwebskills.net/2007/08/22/content-and-presentation-separation-pipedreams/comment-page-1/#comment-11969</link>
		<dc:creator>CSS variables are go! at Mad Web Skills - Web design in Melbourne and Shepparton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Jul 2008 04:10:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.madwebskills.net/2007/08/22/content-and-presentation-separation-pipedreams/#comment-11969</guid>
		<description>[...] a post I wrote almost a year ago (and in the ensuing comments), I pondered the possibility of someday being able to define variables [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] a post I wrote almost a year ago (and in the ensuing comments), I pondered the possibility of someday being able to define variables [...]</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: WDS07: Workshop Day Two at Mad Web Skills - Web design in Melbourne and Shepparton</title>
		<link>http://www.madwebskills.net/2007/08/22/content-and-presentation-separation-pipedreams/comment-page-1/#comment-8192</link>
		<dc:creator>WDS07: Workshop Day Two at Mad Web Skills - Web design in Melbourne and Shepparton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Sep 2007 13:17:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.madwebskills.net/2007/08/22/content-and-presentation-separation-pipedreams/#comment-8192</guid>
		<description>[...] for designer types. This new methodology, along with the new CSS3 selectors module, makes the selector alias theory I had the other week kinda redundant, as markup will no longer require any reference to where the content fits in the [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] for designer types. This new methodology, along with the new CSS3 selectors module, makes the selector alias theory I had the other week kinda redundant, as markup will no longer require any reference to where the content fits in the [...]</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Michael McCorry</title>
		<link>http://www.madwebskills.net/2007/08/22/content-and-presentation-separation-pipedreams/comment-page-1/#comment-7731</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael McCorry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Aug 2007 07:24:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.madwebskills.net/2007/08/22/content-and-presentation-separation-pipedreams/#comment-7731</guid>
		<description>@Trav: I like that idea. Like setting variables that could mean one thing or another. I'm guessing quote delimiters wouldn't be enough. It would have to be something like php where you could use the variable wherever you like, such as: 

&lt;code&gt;@define { 
&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;$bordthickness: "1px"; 
&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;$bordstyle: "solid"; 
&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;$bordcol: "#fc0"; 
&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;$lightcol: "#fffffe"; 
}

.box {
&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;border: $bordthickness $bordstyle $bordcol;
&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;background-color: $lightcol;
}&lt;/code&gt;

Come to think of it, I suppose if we're going to go that direction, we might as well just use php to generate our CSS files. I suppose this way would make it server-independent though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Trav: I like that idea. Like setting variables that could mean one thing or another. I&#8217;m guessing quote delimiters wouldn&#8217;t be enough. It would have to be something like php where you could use the variable wherever you like, such as: </p>
<p><code>@define {<br />
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;$bordthickness: "1px";<br />
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;$bordstyle: "solid";<br />
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;$bordcol: "#fc0";<br />
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;$lightcol: "#fffffe";<br />
}</p>
<p>.box {<br />
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;border: $bordthickness $bordstyle $bordcol;<br />
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;background-color: $lightcol;<br />
}</code></p>
<p>Come to think of it, I suppose if we&#8217;re going to go that direction, we might as well just use php to generate our CSS files. I suppose this way would make it server-independent though.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Michael McCorry</title>
		<link>http://www.madwebskills.net/2007/08/22/content-and-presentation-separation-pipedreams/comment-page-1/#comment-7730</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael McCorry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Aug 2007 07:12:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.madwebskills.net/2007/08/22/content-and-presentation-separation-pipedreams/#comment-7730</guid>
		<description>@Gary: Yeah, I guess you're right. Its a little hard not to hold certain web celebs in a higher regard, especially when you've been looking up to them throughout your career, learning from their blogs and listening to them speak at conferences, etc. 

I've read John Allsop's post about web patterns, and it also interests me a little (along with microformats). This would be quite useful when creating your own style frameworks and starting points, but I'm not too sure about creating some kind of universal rule-set for everyone to follow. However, it would definitely be useful to have a global vocabulary to define the elements of a web design. I remember back in the day, when flash intros were all the go *shudder* we had a demo movie that showed all the animation techniques we used (eg. wavy text, splashing text, typewriter, tile-fade, etc.) so we had a way to discuss with clients what they were actually after, and also with other members of the team on the project. 

As for Blueprint being applied commercially, I agree. I've already used it on a project, but by the time I was finished with it, I'd customised the number of columns and their widths, the container width, as well as some of the typography. (&lt;a href="http://www.kematzy.com/blueprint-generator/index.php" rel="nofollow"&gt;This tool&lt;/a&gt; made it a bit easier at first...). I didn't practically use much of what it offered. Because it was just a small site, it didn't really save me much time, although I guess the real test will come soon enough.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Gary: Yeah, I guess you&#8217;re right. Its a little hard not to hold certain web celebs in a higher regard, especially when you&#8217;ve been looking up to them throughout your career, learning from their blogs and listening to them speak at conferences, etc. </p>
<p>I&#8217;ve read John Allsop&#8217;s post about web patterns, and it also interests me a little (along with microformats). This would be quite useful when creating your own style frameworks and starting points, but I&#8217;m not too sure about creating some kind of universal rule-set for everyone to follow. However, it would definitely be useful to have a global vocabulary to define the elements of a web design. I remember back in the day, when flash intros were all the go *shudder* we had a demo movie that showed all the animation techniques we used (eg. wavy text, splashing text, typewriter, tile-fade, etc.) so we had a way to discuss with clients what they were actually after, and also with other members of the team on the project. </p>
<p>As for Blueprint being applied commercially, I agree. I&#8217;ve already used it on a project, but by the time I was finished with it, I&#8217;d customised the number of columns and their widths, the container width, as well as some of the typography. (<a href="http://www.kematzy.com/blueprint-generator/index.php" rel="nofollow">This tool</a> made it a bit easier at first&#8230;). I didn&#8217;t practically use much of what it offered. Because it was just a small site, it didn&#8217;t really save me much time, although I guess the real test will come soon enough.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Travis</title>
		<link>http://www.madwebskills.net/2007/08/22/content-and-presentation-separation-pipedreams/comment-page-1/#comment-7727</link>
		<dc:creator>Travis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Aug 2007 00:54:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.madwebskills.net/2007/08/22/content-and-presentation-separation-pipedreams/#comment-7727</guid>
		<description>I really like that alias idea - would definitely remove the drudgery of having to constantly add CSS rules with multiple selectors.

On a slightly related note, I would love to see a way in CSS to define your own color names as well. So I could do something like:

@color: borderColor=#ccc;

and then constantly use "borderColor" in my CSS rules:

.panel
{
    border: 1px solid "borderColor";
}

(with quote delimiters, since I imagine parsing arbritrarily defined color names like that could be perplexing)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I really like that alias idea - would definitely remove the drudgery of having to constantly add CSS rules with multiple selectors.</p>
<p>On a slightly related note, I would love to see a way in CSS to define your own color names as well. So I could do something like:</p>
<p>@color: borderColor=#ccc;</p>
<p>and then constantly use &#8220;borderColor&#8221; in my CSS rules:</p>
<p>.panel<br />
{<br />
    border: 1px solid &#8220;borderColor&#8221;;<br />
}</p>
<p>(with quote delimiters, since I imagine parsing arbritrarily defined color names like that could be perplexing)</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Gary Barber</title>
		<link>http://www.madwebskills.net/2007/08/22/content-and-presentation-separation-pipedreams/comment-page-1/#comment-7721</link>
		<dc:creator>Gary Barber</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Aug 2007 09:02:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.madwebskills.net/2007/08/22/content-and-presentation-separation-pipedreams/#comment-7721</guid>
		<description>Well web-celebs are people too.  In fact I would take a lot of what they say with a pinch of salt as they really only know as much as we do.  They are riding on the same train, heading in the same unknown direction :)

The use of defined alias to some extend was proposed on the WHATWG list (IIRC) and is similar to John Allslop's concept of design (web) patterns. Which is topic I have great deal of interest in. 

However I can point to lots of in the wild cases daily in which we need to separate the id style rules and apply a layers class cascade of rules for a comment design element over multiple pages etc.  Its a nice idea however.  A simple starting point would be to get all the headers, footers, columns and content on the grid named the same from a universal context. 

Blueprint has lots of good points as it brings together a lot of good ideas and techniques into one framework.  Still I can't see it being applied commerically with out some degree of personalisation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well web-celebs are people too.  In fact I would take a lot of what they say with a pinch of salt as they really only know as much as we do.  They are riding on the same train, heading in the same unknown direction <img src='http://www.madwebskills.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
The use of defined alias to some extend was proposed on the WHATWG list (IIRC) and is similar to John Allslop&#8217;s concept of design (web) patterns. Which is topic I have great deal of interest in. </p>
<p>However I can point to lots of in the wild cases daily in which we need to separate the id style rules and apply a layers class cascade of rules for a comment design element over multiple pages etc.  Its a nice idea however.  A simple starting point would be to get all the headers, footers, columns and content on the grid named the same from a universal context. </p>
<p>Blueprint has lots of good points as it brings together a lot of good ideas and techniques into one framework.  Still I can&#8217;t see it being applied commerically with out some degree of personalisation.</p>
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